Episode 279: Students Learning To Be Cybersecurity Sleuths

Anthony Godfrey:
When you are working on cyber security issues, do you kind of imagine an enemy like someone who's trying to get in.

Levi Hansen:
Yeah, it's a bit like that. It's kind of like a Tower Defense game where I'm like setting up my defenses for enemies coming in.

Mark Ogden:
The students are learning how to do hacking so that then they know how to better protect against that.

Khanon Curtis:
They're my favorite classes I have that I'm taking. And especially even out of school and after class, I love to do things that we do in this class.

Anthony Godfrey:
Hello and welcome to the Supercast. I'm your host, Superintendent Anthony Godfrey. They are students learning to fight crime on the web and make it a safer place for everyone.

On this episode of the Supercast, we take you inside a classroom at JATC North, where students are enrolled in a brand new cyber security course. Find out how they are learning things like digital forensics, which can take them down career paths as digital detectives, working at local businesses, in education, and even exploring opportunities with the Department of Defense.

We're at JATC North today talking with Mark Ogden about the cyber security program here at JATC. Thanks for talking with us.

Mark Ogden:
Yeah, my pleasure. I'm excited for you guys to come and learn about what we're doing here.

Anthony Godfrey:
Tell us about this program. It's pretty new and I believe you're pretty new.

Mark Ogden:
Yeah, this is the first year of the program. I worked out in industry in doing cyber security, designing solutions for companies all around the world, and decided to switch into teaching four years ago, right in the middle of the pandemic. I taught at Hidden Valley for four years in their engineering and computer science departments and then it's my first year here at the JATC and I love it. It's great.

The cyber security program, it's really an umbrella that encompasses a lot of things. So we talk about installing operating systems, patching them, building computer networks, as well as firewalls, and all the solutions to try to keep organizations safe.

Anthony Godfrey:
So this is the hub. It kind of smells electronic in here with the server fan. So we've got a couple of students here as well. Tell us your names and what drew you to the program.

Khanon Curtis:
I'm Khanon Curtis and I came to this program because my dad is a cybersecurity engineer and I wanted to learn more about his job to see if it would be a career pathway for me.

Anthony Godfrey:
And what do you think about it so far?

Khanon Curtis:
I love it. It's one of my favorite things to do and I look forward to coming here every day.

Anthony Godfrey:
That's awesome. How about you?

Levi Hansen:
I'm Levi Hansen and I came here because I have a general interest in technology and I just wanted to get into cyber security and learn more about computers and hopefully find a career in it eventually.

Anthony Godfrey:
So as you've explored it this year and started to learn more, is it indeed a career that you still want to pursue?

Levi Hansen:
100%.

Anthony Godfrey:
Awesome. That's great. I already feel safer. So tell us about some of the classes that are involved in the cyber security program.

Mark Ogden:
Yeah. So we start off with just a basic intro to IT. We have a really great focus in our district with computer science and coding and things like that. But on this side we're more hardware-focused, operating system-focused. It's a really great class for somebody that loves technology but maybe isn't as into coding. It's nice if you have that background but we're more about the hardware side of things, building things, updating things. So we do networking and then we move into the security side of things, configuring systems and keeping networks safe.

Anthony Godfrey:
We've already heard a little bit about this but tell me what are some of the interests or talents that a student might have that would draw them to this program.

Mark Ogden:
So if you like to take stuff apart and figure out how it works or you like to solve puzzles and really just focus in and solve problems, those are great skills to have in here. It's not as much technology. Like when I was in high school I didn't really have any interest in computers but I loved solving problems. And so when I started my career I started actually with Murray School District in their IT department, pulling cable and managing their systems. And then I went out to industry before coming back into teaching. We'll teach you everything you need to know about it but you need to have a passion for problem-solving and you like to just get in and figure stuff out.

Anthony Godfrey:
What are some of the skills that students leave with, problem-solving obviously and being able to put things together. But if they're talking to an employer what kind of certifications or skills do they come away with once they finish the cybersecurity program?

Mark Ogden:
We have a really big focus on preparing students so that they can get a job right out of high school or go into a cybersecurity program at a college. And so some of the big skills we focus on is, first thing is cabling, getting all the computers and everything connected. So in our class one of the first things we do is we came in here and nothing was set up. The students had to pull all the cable, get it terminated, get connected into the network, and set up their computers.

Anthony Godfrey:
There’s a lot of cable. There’s a lot of cable for anyone listening. It's hanging from the ceiling, it's everywhere, every color.

Mark Ogden:
Yeah, so that's the first thing. That's how I started too was pulling cable, terminating it. Back in those days we were running internet connections to all of the classrooms and so they could start there just with a company pulling cable, terminating it all the way up to building servers, installing operating systems. We focus on CompTIA certifications in here. So we start with Tech Plus, which feeds into Network Plus and then Security Plus. And if they can make it all the way through that process, they can easily get a job out of high school making $60,000 to $100,000.

Anthony Godfrey:
That sounds fantastic. So what types of jobs would they be applying for?

Mark Ogden:
So a lot of the jobs would be probably starting off doing basic support help desk type of work where people call in, they need help with their computers, you work for a company, fixing computers, working with their users, and then work their way up into network administration, network engineering, or system administration, system engineering, building servers, and managing those. All the way up to being like a security specialist where you're doing training for your users, you're implementing systems to protect the network, you're doing penetration testing to see and find holes in systems so that you can plug those and try to keep everybody safe.

Anthony Godfrey:
We do pen tests as a district, maybe we should have your students do pen tests.

Mark Ogden:
That would be super cool. We have a lot of students that are really interested in becoming pen testers. Yeah.

Anthony Godfrey:
Good, good. That's outstanding. And let me ask you this, when you are this good with computers and taking them apart and putting them together and understanding how they work, is that kind of like being a mechanic in your neighborhood where everyone says, "Oh, I know who to call. I know who can help me with my computer."

Mark Ogden:
It definitely can be. Yeah, it could be a good side hustle or even just, yeah, if people know you know how to fix computers, you're very popular.

Anthony Godfrey:
A friend of mine has a similar set of skills and he has a t-shirt that says, "No, I cannot fix your computer."

Mark Ogden:
Yeah, right.

Anthony Godfrey:
These are skills that will come in handy, not just for employment, but making friends and influencing people for sure.

Mark Ogden:
Yeah, and a lot of these students already have experience with that. They're already being contacted by parents, grandparents, and everybody else to fix their stuff. They generally come in pretty well-versed in that stuff.

Anthony Godfrey:
That's awesome. I should have brought my laptop in.

Mark Ogden:
Right, yeah.

Anthony Godfrey:
So, tell me some of the skills that you've learned since coming into the program.

Khanon Curtis:
I have learned a lot about operating systems and how they work and a lot about hardware, especially, putting together computers, what each parts do, how they work. Also, one of my favorite things that I've learned about is networking. I love learning about how the IP addresses work, how they are distributed. Mac addresses, how they're applied to each different computer and each different device. I just love this class overall and I'm so grateful to be a part of it.

Anthony Godfrey:
Your dad must be pretty excited that you like the class as much as you do.

Khanon Curtis:
Yeah, he definitely is.

Anthony Godfrey:
Tell me about some of the things you've learned.

Levi Hansen:
I mean, pretty much the same stuff. I have expanded a lot into learning how to navigate things like Windows and set up all those settings and get them secure for a network and everything like that for an office and whatnot, especially through CyberPatriot.

Mark Ogden:
It's a national competition that the students are doing. They send us images of different computers, Windows Server, Windows Desktop, as well as different Linux distributions. Those have security holes in them that the students need to find and close up and do the updates. So yeah, we've competed in two rounds. We just did the state round. These guys ended up in the top ten for the state their first year. I'm super proud of them. They did a great job and have worked really hard at that.

Anthony Godfrey:
Outstanding. And that's called the CyberPatriot?

Mark Ogden:
CyberPatriot, yeah. It's a national competition that's run by the Department of Defense to help kind of scout for students, but give them the opportunity to learn the skills as well.

Levi Hansen:
I've just learned a lot through CyberPatriot and that's where a lot of my general skill I've gained so far in this class has come from. Just messing around with that and getting images completed through all their challenges and solving all the security issues that they have.

Anthony Godfrey:
So when you are working on cybersecurity issues, do you kind of imagine an enemy like someone who's trying to get in? Is it a little bit of a chess game thinking about, okay, how are they thinking and how can I outsmart them?

Levi Hansen:
Yeah, yeah, it's a bit like that. It's kind of like a Tower Defense game where I'm like setting up my defenses for enemies coming in, I have to plug up all the holes and get all my defenses secured and ready to defend against all the attackers.

Anthony Godfrey:
So there's a little game theory to it to really think about how they might be trying to get around what you set up.

Levi Hansen:
Yeah, pretty much.

Anthony Godfrey:
Have you been talking with your dad about some of the problems that you encounter and that you have in competition?

Khanon Curtis:
Yeah, I actually ask him a lot about it. For instance, when we get the images, we have training rounds and if I can't figure something out in the training round, I'll ask him about it, and a lot of the time he explains to me what I need to do and how to fix it and it helps me in the actual state competitions and rounds and stuff.

Anthony Godfrey:
That's awesome. So you guys won which competition, what level of competition just now? You’re top 10? You’re top 10 in the state? Is that right?

Mark Ogden:
Yeah, actually I think it's top five. I just looked at it before we left and I misspoke. Yeah, they're top five in the state and they're at the top of their division. So there are different divisions and not only are they top of their division, which is kind of the first-year division, but they ended up ahead of several schools that are at higher divisions as well.

Anthony Godfrey:
Stay with us. When we come back we explore some of the projects students have undertaken as part of their cybersecurity course at JATC North.

Never miss an episode of the Supercast by liking and subscribing on your favorite podcasting platform. Find transcripts for this episode and others at supercast.jordandistrict.org.

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Anthony Godfrey:
Alright, can we take a look at some of what you've been doing here?

Levi Hansen:
Yeah, I have to get signed in. Alright. We have a station, we have like four computers, we have four people for station or table. The wire's a bit of a mess, but I assume we'll fix it at some point.

Mark Ogden:
Yeah. That'll be one of their challenges I'll throw at them is I'll come in and cut their wires and make them figure out what's wrong and fix it.

Anthony Godfrey:
That's gotta be fun for you to create the problems that they then get to solve.

Mark Ogden:
Yeah, it's a lot of fun.

Anthony Godfrey:
Alright, Levi, talk me through what we've got here.

Levi Hansen:
Alright, so for our class, our internet might not connect for a little bit. We've been doing what are called capture the flags where essentially there's a secret text, a line of text that we have to find in a file or through some other program that we have to get through. And we just have to follow certain steps to get that flag and then input it in and we get points. They don't really do much, but they're just fun little challenges that teach us how to navigate through files or execute programs or alter programs and files or exploit the web through inspect element and stuff.

Mark Ogden:
The students are through these capture the flag events. The students are learning how to do hacking skills or hacking actions so that then they know how to better protect against that in their future jobs and as well as their life. So they're having to exploit web pages and servers and different things so that then they can kind of see more of the inner workings of these systems.

Anthony Godfrey:
Is it hard for you to be online and not notice all of the security shortfalls in particular websites?

Mark Ogden:
Yeah, it definitely opens your eyes to it. You see that stuff that people just don't normally notice.

Anthony Godfrey:
Yeah, yeah. Okay, let's take a look at this.

Levi Hansen:
So for instance–

Anthony Godfrey:
You're looking for a flag.

Levi Hansen:
Yes, so there's this challenge on PicoCTF called Web Decode. And so when I start the instance, I go to the website and they just have this little website like, "Ha, you're looking for a flag." So I have to right click and go to inspect.

Anthony Godfrey:
And this picture here taunts you.

Levi Hansen:
Yeah, they're taunting me the whole time about finding these flags.

Anthony Godfrey:
And so you hop in and this code means absolutely nothing to me.

Levi Hansen:
This is basic HTML and so you just have your...

Anthony Godfrey:
It hurts when I say I don't understand it and then you say it's basic. Okay, go on.

Levi Hansen:
I just mean it's not a super weird thing.

Anthony Godfrey:
Yeah, I understand. I'm just teasing.

Levi Hansen:
Yeah. And so basically you just start searching...

Anthony Godfrey:
All right, let's go through the basics, yes.

Levi Hansen:
...through all these little things. And so if I go down to...I believe it was properties. I can start looking through the code and look at…certain parts. So like here I found the styling part of the code. And if I'm just searching through I can see they leave little comments about certain parts of the code. Like this part styles the homepage. And so if he keeps going through eventually I might find something that has part of a flag or the fact that they fit in itself inside of here.

Anthony Godfrey:
I see.

Levi Hansen:
And so I just keep going through these little pages and searching for any hints or parts of the flag.

Anthony Godfrey:
Is part of the cyber patriot competition timed? So you're working under pressure.

Levi Hansen:
Yeah, we get about four hours during actual rounds to work as a team to get things done. And so we do have quite a bit of time but it's not like an infinite time to get it all done.

Anthony Godfrey:
And is there a lot of teamwork involved?

Levi Hansen:
Partially, yeah. There's a lot of helping each other out with certain problems but mostly it's you figuring out your own image that you're running.

Anthony Godfrey:
Doing your part of that.

Levi Hansen:
Yeah.

Anthony Godfrey:
Fascinating. Very interesting. And somehow that guy smiling just is all… It's all the worst that he's just smiling at you while you try to find the flag.

Levi Hansen:
Yeah, it's evil.

Anthony Godfrey:
How about you, Khanon? Show me what you've been working on.

Khanon Curtis:
I have been working on creating my own password manager. That is…

Anthony Godfrey:
Oh. Kind of like LastPass.

Khanon Curtis:
Yeah, exactly. Except I hopefully won't get a data breach.

Anthony Godfrey:
Touche. Are you listening LastPass? He's taking it to the next level.

Khanon Curtis:
I'm building my password manager using Python, Rust, and SQLite.

Anthony Godfrey:
Is Pascal involved at all?

Khanon Curtis:
I'm not sure what that is.

Anthony Godfrey:
I'm just kidding. That's a computer language from the 1980s.

Khanon Curtis:
Oh, awesome.

Anthony Godfrey:
I just thought I'd throw something out there, you know?

Khanon Curtis:
Yeah, I actually haven't heard of that.

Anthony Godfrey:
Okay, perfect. I don't think you're going to need to know Pascal.

Khanon Curtis:
I sure hope not.

Anthony Godfrey:
I don't need to know it either. Okay, so tell me about your password manager. You told me the programs that you're using to create it. What's going to make yours different from the others that exist right now?

Khanon Curtis:
So my password manager is going to… It's localized on your device. It's not in the cloud. So if you shut down the password manager, it won't be running. You can't go to the link that has your information in it.

Anthony Godfrey:
I see. I'm very impressed not only with what you are both doing, but also with the passion that you bring to it. What's it like having Mr. Ogden as a teacher?

Levi Hansen:
He's my favorite teacher I've ever had, honestly. He's great at what he does. He helps us a lot. His management of the classroom is great. I love him, honestly.

Khanon Curtis:
I totally feel the same way about Mr. Ogden. He's 100% my favorite teacher. As I said earlier, I look forward to coming to his classes. They're my favorite classes I have that I'm taking. And especially even out of school and after class, I love to do things that we do in this class like Hack the Box or PicoCTF. He's just so encouraging.

Anthony Godfrey:
Well, you're lucky to have a teacher like Mr. Ogden, and you're lucky to have found what you love to do. And you're even luckier that everyone needs your help in this world. Computers are everywhere, and you are going to be essential wherever you go. So thank you very much for spending the time and for being such a great part of JATC.

Khanon Curtis:
Thank you.

Levi Hansen:
Thank you.

Anthony Godfrey:
Thanks for joining us on another episode of the Supercast. Remember, education is the most important thing you'll do today. We'll see you out there.

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