Do you know someone who is being bullied? Is it something you have experienced yourself?
On this episode of the Supercast, find out what parents, schools and members of the community can do to help prevent bullying and teach kids that it is not OK. Dr. Scott Poland, one of the leading experts in bullying prevention in the United States, joins us with some sound advice on how to identify a bully and stop the bad behavior in a way that works.
Audio Transcription
Anthony Godfrey:
Hello, and welcome to the Supercast. I'm your host, Superintendent Anthony Godfrey. Do you know someone who is being bullied? Is it something you have experienced yourself? On this episode of the Supercast, find out what parents, schools, and members of the community can do to help prevent bullying and teach kids that it is not okay. Dr. Scott Poland, one of the leading experts in bullying prevention in the United States, joins us with some sound advice on how to identify a bully and stop the bad behavior in ways that really work.
We are here with Dr. Scott Poland, a psychologist, professor, and expert in helping schools with prevention and through all kinds of crises. Thank you very much for taking time with us Dr. Poland.
Dr. Scott Poland:
Thank you very much, Dr. Godfrey for this opportunity today. I compliment the Jordan School District for focusing on the important problem of bullying prevention and the role that everybody has, not just schools, parents, community, students themselves. Everybody's got to be involved making a difference to prevent bullying.
Anthony Godfrey:
Well, I appreciate that. And you're right, we all have to pitch in together to make an impact. It's a big concern. It's a term that's used a lot. Let's just start out with talking about what bullying means. What is the general accepted definition of bullying?
Dr. Scott Poland:
The definition really stresses. Bullying is all about power. Power that one person has and another one does not. Bullying is repetitive. Bullying is nasty. Bullying is humiliating. Sometimes people are like, ‘How do we know it wasn't good natured teasing?’ But when kids are teasing each other, they walk away at about the same level. When it's bullying, one of them walks away feeling powerful. The one other one is really feeling horrible, and it's really difficult for somebody who's just been victimized by bullying to suddenly be at their best, you know, in their family or in school and trying to learn.
Anthony Godfrey:
That makes a ton of sense. It's about how everyone walks away from the situation. How prevalent would you say bullying is these days? I know you work with a lot of schools, you're busier than ever. You work at a national level. How prevalent is bullying right now?
Dr. Scott Poland:
Well, very prevalent. You know, somewhere around 20% of middle school students would say they're bullied somewhat frequently, and it does tend to peak in middle school. You know, the best sources of data for us are the stopbullying.gov website, federal government site. And then most states do a youth risk behavior surveillance survey every two years with middle schoolers and high schoolers. And that's where we really get the data about at risk behavior as well as kids feeling victimized. So it's pretty prevalent, unfortunately.
Anthony Godfrey:
Now, I know that it's a term that's used frequently. What are some of the myths that are associated with bullying? Because I think a lot of things get lumped into that category, and if we're specific about some of those myths, then maybe we can be more effective at combating it.
Dr. Scott Poland:
Well, one myth is that the bullies were somehow abused as a child. And that's not true. It's more like those that are the victims of bullying are more likely to have been abused in some way. And then, you know, we'd really like to think that bullies outgrow the behavior, but unfortunately, that's not necessarily true. I think probably everybody listening would be aware of some examples in the workplace and the community, some examples of adults that seem to stay in the position they're in because of the way they interact with others. So I wish I could say, you know, that every kid grows out of it, but that's not necessarily true. Bullies often get what they want. And particularly at the middle school level, the bully actually can become somewhat popular, which is unfortunate. We would hope that kids wouldn't gravitate and basically make the bully feel like they are the popular one. But that does happen.
Anthony Godfrey:
So they get rewarded sometimes for that behavior in various ways. Getting what they want, experiencing increased popularity, and as a result that that path becomes well worn and can continue into adulthood. That's an interesting point. And concerning. You've mentioned middle school. Is there a particular age where that starts? Is it at the beginning of middle school, throughout middle school and do you see it more and more with younger students? Talk to me K-12, what do we see?
Dr. Scott Poland:
Well, I think unfortunately lots of at risk behaviors are occurring earlier and earlier. Many elementary school teachers are very concerned about bullying. They're concerned about depression. You know, I think that especially with beginning elementary students, it sort of just starts out with not being respectful of others. Some mean behaviors, a lack of kindness. I think if both of us could wave a magic wand, this is the time where we need so much more kindness in our world and just always being respectful and helpful to others. And, you know, sometimes it's impulsivity and young kids say something that's really hurtful and then they get in a pattern of that. And one of the things that kids have said to me, that are the victims of bullying before, that really made me pause and think. They've said things like, ‘when you get treated this way enough times, you start to think you deserve it.’ And no kid deserves to be bullied. Every one of them. We want 'em all to be connected to our schools. We want them all to have good relations with peers and school staff. You know, we want school to be a place where kids are happy and successful. And then, you know, we talked in the beginning about it's not just for the schools to solve. So that means in youth sports, youth activities, cub scouts, girl scouts, really everywhere, the adults have to be alert and intervene when a pattern of bullying starts to begin.
Anthony Godfrey:
That's really impactful to hear you say that. Just the idea that kids start to think that they deserve the bullying and that what the bullies are saying is accurate. And I suspect that happens pretty quickly. I suspect it doesn't take very long to feel like you deserve it.
Dr. Scott Poland:
Excellent point. And, the research does say kids that are the victim of bullying, at least initially went to adults. But if the adults don't do anything to intervene, and, you know, we need to talk about what should adults do to intervene. But when the adults basically, you know, just kind of write it off or don't get involved. Sometimes I've had people say, ‘Oh, come on Scott, bullying's a part of life. Everybody has it happen. They get through it.’ But it does not have to be that way.
Anthony Godfrey:
That's a really important point that we have this window of opportunity when a child goes to an adult and talks about what's happening. Because if they don't see a result from talking to an adult, then they're gonna stop doing that. And we won't be aware of the bullying. If we rely on our own personal experience to determine whether bullying is happening, then we're going to assume that it isn't, because a lot of times it's gonna happen outside of our view. Is that accurate?
Dr. Scott Poland:
Absolutely. You made a great point. How do we actually determine if bullying took place? We really need to talk to the recipient of the bullying and find out how did you feel when that was happening? Did you feel unsafe? Did you feel humiliated? Were you getting angry? So, you know, we can't tell for sure without actually talking to kids. And when they come to us, our message, whether it's a parent, whether it's a youth soccer coach, whether it's a teacher, the message should always be, ‘You do not deserve this. We are going to get this stopped, and I'm here for you every step of the way. And if this continues, keep telling me, but we are going to take action to get this stopped.’
Anthony Godfrey:
I think what you just said is vital. Tell us that again.
Dr. Scott Poland:
Well, the action that that's really what the adults need to basically say, ‘You don't deserve this. Here's what we're going to do. We're going to get this stopped.’ So that takes us into the realm of we need to support the victim, of course, but we really need consequences for the bully. And the bully needs to know this behavior is not acceptable. Here are the consequences today. If you continue to bully others, these consequences will escalate. And I'm not keeping this a secret. I'm telling all the other adults that are, you know, working together for the Cub Scout program, or I'm a teacher, I'm telling all the other teachers, everybody will be watching you. And remember, these consequences will escalate.
Anthony Godfrey:
So it's a full court press and it's being very clear with the victim that I'm here with you every step of the way. I love the way you said that, and I need you to keep talking to me about this if it continues to happen. Being very explicit about that so that the victim doesn't say, Well, I talked to an adult and I'm done now.
Dr. Scott Poland:
And the adults really need to increase supervision. You know, we're concerned in schools, bullying is more likely to occur on a school bus, in a restroom, in the hallway. And you know, one of the things that we need to do really in all student activities is just survey our students, or survey the kids that are in our community based soccer program and find out, first of all, hopefully they feel connected and they're enjoying it. But is there bullying taking place? And what are their ideas in terms of how can we turn this around? How can we reduce and eliminate the bullying that's happening?
Anthony Godfrey:
Stay with us when we come back. We'll learn how to recognize the signs of bullying behaviors in order to keep kids safe.
Break:
In Jordan School District, we like to support students in and outside the classroom along with their families. That's where the Jordan Family Education Center comes in, offering support services and a wide variety of classes for students and their families, free of charge. You can take a class called Blues Busters for children feeling sad or worried. Just Breathe is a class that helps students reduce stress. Or how about a class that supports parents in helping their children make and keep good friends. There are also support groups and free counseling, all provided by Jordan School District school psychologists and counselors. To find out how you can benefit from free family support services offered by the Jordan Family Education Center, call 801-565-7442 or visit guidance.jordandistrict.org.
Anthony Godfrey:
So let's talk about what happens when a child goes to a parent and says, I'm being bullied. This is happening.
Dr. Scott Poland:
So we really need parents that are good listeners that would really be empathetic and again, emphasize, ‘You do not deserve this. We're going to get this stopped.’ Now, the parents' reaction might be to actually confront the bully, confront the parents of the bully. And that is actually not recommended. It's more like, I need to talk to whoever's in charge of the Cub Scout troop. I need to talk to the classroom teacher, if the bullying's occurring at school, that is the place to start. I mean, there have been some stories nationally where a dad jumps on a school bus and confronts the kid bullying his child, and pretty soon the dad's arrested. And then, and I've actually had people, like school counselors say, ‘But I'm trained for this. I can intervene.’ And I'm gonna say, ‘But it's your child that's experiencing this. Take a step back.’ And then, you know, we've got to talk about cyber bullying today. But when you're aware that your kids being cyber bullied, your first thought is, I'm gonna take away that computer. I'm gonna get 'em off those sites, but that's actually punishing your child. So we've gotta find some balance here where your child doesn't feel punished because they're telling you what's happening to them online.
Anthony Godfrey:
Which could result in their not wanting to bring up concerns or issues that they're going through because they're worried that they're gonna be further disconnected from the people in their world.
Dr. Scott Poland:
Absolutely. Tendency to say to our kids ‘Everything's gonna be okay’, or, ‘Oh, let me tell you about what happened to me.’ And really, the more we can hold back from that and just keep saying, ‘I can't imagine this must be so hard, what are your ideas about how you can get through this? Do you see something that I could do to help?’ I actually had a kid the other day say something like this, ‘You know, when my dad gives me advice too quickly, it's like, I know that he didn't really listen to everything that I was going on.’ So I cannot overemphasize with parents, listen and ask your child, ‘How can I help? What do you think would make this situation better?’
Anthony Godfrey:
I love the idea of connecting with the child and asking for ideas there. And you're right, when a solution comes too quickly, it's like you're not really listening to the specific circumstances that the child is experiencing, and the likelihood that the situation matches up well enough with a memory of ours that we ought to be sharing our story is pretty low.
Dr. Scott Poland:
I know, I know.
Anthony Godfrey:
Tell me, you mentioned cyber bullying. So rather than disconnecting kids from the sites where they may be bullied, what are some other approaches that may work more effectively?
Dr. Scott Poland:
Well, we know this is really challenging. You and I, when we went home from school, we probably walked into a house where there was one telephone and there was actually a cord on that phone. Yes. And it was literally like, home was a safe haven, right? That nobody could reach us with humiliating, nasty messages, at least, unless they wanted to talk to my mom first, because she would be the one answering the phone. But we know everything has changed so dramatically. The other day I became aware of a program that I'm really excited about. It's called Wait Until 8th Grade. So really, what's that program all about? No smart phones until your kid enters eighth grade. And of course, kids need a way to communicate, but you know, a kid can have a watch that basically allows them to call six people because they need to get in touch with mom or grandpa or whatever. Of course, every parent is going to say, 'But you know, my kid's telling me every other sixth grader or fifth grader or fourth grader has a smartphone.' But the program actually puts you in touch with others in your community that have the same values about not being in a hurry for all this technology. And then when kids do have all that technology, it actually works the best when, you know, it's a family room, it's a desktop, Parents have passwords, parents are constantly discussing with kids things like, you know, once you post something, it's like there forever. You can't take it back. And I wanna share today an app that I'm really excited about.
Anthony Godfrey:
Yeah.
Dr. Scott Poland:
The app is called Rethink Words, and it was actually developed by an adolescent, I think she was from Australia. And when the Rethink Words app is on your phone or on your tablet, it recognizes harmful, hurtful messages and it basically sends you a message like, Is this really what you wanna say? And they have data that like 93% of the time, kids either reword it or they don't send it.
And then some families and some schools are selecting blackout dates, which is basically, let's turn off all the technology. Let's do an old fashioned board game in our home tonight. So this is an extremely challenging area, but I do see some programs that can make a difference. I wish we'd stop seeing the parents when they come in a restaurant with a four year old, they immediately hand them their phone. I know you see that everywhere in Utah, but it's literally like, kids need to learn to actually just talk to people, talk to their family, talk to their friends. They really need to develop in person skills.
Anthony Godfrey:
Well, I'm personally connected to mine and I have to make a conscious effort all the time not to do exactly what you described. You know, we've talked about what to do if your child is bullied and I love the phrases that you used. I love the idea of not confronting the child and parents directly, but talking with the person in authority to work through the system that way. And to make sure that it's addressed that way. That it's going to be more effective. But what does a parent do if they find out that their child is the bully?
Dr. Scott Poland:
Well, first of all, I would hope that they would not be defensive and we're sharing this information with them in a way that we're not trying to imply you must be doing a bad job for your kid to behave this way. So it's really important that they increase supervision of their child. They might need to take the technology away for a while if their kid is the cyber bully. And we really need to encourage them to get their kids involved in prosocial activities where they're actually helping others. And, you know, when an older kid is tutoring a younger kid, you know, they get immeasurable benefits and they feel good about themselves. And so for parents, it's difficult to hear that your kid is the bully, but it's like, work with the school, work with the community organization, whoever is alerting you to the problem. It's literally like, let's talk together about what we can do and that increased supervision. And yes, I would hope there would be some consequences at home for the choices a kid is making when they engage in bullying.
Anthony Godfrey:
And this goes back to the myth that you mentioned earlier. When we're approaching it as a school or as parents, we don't wanna make the assumption that someone who is a bully has been abused or that there's some deep problem at home. It may simply be that the bully has been reinforced in that behavior because they tried it, it worked, and they've continued to use that method to feel good about themselves and to get the things that they're looking for.
Dr. Scott Poland:
Absolutely. And I wanna make one more point about if your kid is the one being bullied. We've already talked about the steps that you need to take and you're there for them every step of the way. But one of the things I find with kids is that when they find their niche, when they're involved in some activity, they feel good about, they're treated well in one situation, that really can go a long way to help them still feel pretty good about themselves, even though there's some bullying or harassment in some other situations.
Anthony Godfrey:
Thank you very much, Dr. Poland. What are some other resources that parents can go to for more information about bullying prevention?
Dr. Scott Poland:
Well, a really great thing is over the last decade there's been a lot of emphasis on bullying prevention. A lot of legislation has been passed. Schools have really stepped forward, like the Jordan School District, and taken this really seriously. There is the website from the federal government, stopbullying.gov. I'm a very big fan of Common Sense Media. Common Sense Media actually has information on digital citizenship really by grade level. So they provide some really clear guidance about third graders and technology, and what should they be doing, and how can they be respectful and kind and, you know, all of their postings. So those come to mind immediately. And then I'm a very big fan of the Rethink Words. If I could wave a magic wand, I'd love to have that app on every adolescent's phone and tablet in the entire country just to try to get them to rethink.
And then we haven't talked much about bystanders yet, but this is always a big issue in terms of a lot of bullying takes place with an audience. And how do we get bystanders? Some people have actually said that term is too passive. Have you ever heard the term upstanding? Which basically means I'm gonna stand up here and basically with others, let the bully know this is not what we want to have happen on our team, or our community program, or in our classroom. A lot of programs emphasize the role of kids stepping forward and just letting a bully know it's not what we want, it's not how we behave.
Anthony Godfrey:
I think that's really important because almost anyone can be an upstander. You may not have been a victim, you may not have been a bully, but we've all witnessed it and there's really something that we can do to help. Dr. Poland thank you very much for your advice today and over the years, you've helped us through difficult issues as I know you have for many districts nationwide. So thanks again for taking time with us and for helping us move forward. I wish you the best in everything you're working on.
Dr. Scott Poland:
Thank you, Dr. Godfrey. And it's been my pleasure to work with the Jordan School District and thank you for all your leadership, especially in this important area where we all try to stop bullying in our schools, communities, and in our homes because we know that experiencing bullying over many years is extremely harmful to young people.
Anthony Godfrey:
Thank you, Dr. Poland.
Thanks for joining us on another episode of The Supercast. Remember, education is the most important thing you'll do today. We'll see out there.